<HTML><BODY BGCOLOR="#00cc00"><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10>Subj:	<B> Traveller-digest V1999 #1580</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10></B><BR>
Date:	12/25/99 10:10:27 AM Pacific Standard Time<BR>
From:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
Sender:	owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Reply-to:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
To:	traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
Traveller-digest    Saturday, December 25 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1580<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: 3I Sports<BR>
Re: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
Re: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
Free Trade (Was  America, as seen by a Canadian)<BR>
Re: England<BR>
Re: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
RE: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
Re: England... [WWII Casaulties]<BR>
Re: Six Flags<BR>
Re: Geog<BR>
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1577<BR>
Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
Re: winning, losing, and not winning wars (was re: England) <BR>
Re: Texas<BR>
Re: Drawing Program<BR>
Re: Getting to cons<BR>
Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
Re: Geog<BR>
Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
Merry Christmas<BR>
Re: England<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 04:39:45 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: 3I Sports<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> On Fri, 24 Dec 1999, Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> The fun thing about 'Shockwave Rider' is that Brunner predicted computer<BR>
>>> viruses, before they actually existed (though it may have been close,<BR>
> when<BR>
>>> was the Internet Worm released ?), he just got the _name_ wrong, calling<BR>
>>> them "phages", which I believe may be a much more biologically accurate<BR>
>>> description.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Well, the Internet Worm was in 1988,  but computer viruses existed ong<BR>
>> before that. An article I read a long time ago in Scientific American<BR>
>> about computer viruses, described one written on an Apple II, designed to<BR>
>> spread under DOS 3.3 (Apple DOS 3.3 no relation to MS DOS anything) which<BR>
>> would date it to the late 70's early 80's.<BR>
>><BR>
>> PC Virii existed before then, as well.<BR>
><BR>
> "Shockwave Rider"  is copyright 1975, I knew it was before PC's, but I had a<BR>
> feeling the Internet worm was mid-seventies, or maybe I'm thinking of<BR>
> something else.<BR>
<BR>
Probably one of the many stories that had such. Like the references in<BR>
"When H.A.R.L.I.E. Was One" to a "worm" incident about then. The<BR>
Internet was barely started in the mid 70s.<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 05:14:30 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
>> *Could* the BG background be salavaged from all the bad science and<BR>
>> worse writing and turned into a campaign?<BR>
><BR>
> I don't see why not, the idea is cute, a refugee fleet, being pursued by the<BR>
> enemy.<BR>
<BR>
And under Traveller rules, they are somewhat better off. Hydrogen Fuel<BR>
is a *lot* easier to get than the stuff they were always running out<BR>
of. <BR>
<BR>
And jump *does* make evading pursuers easier. <BR>
<BR>
> As long as the cute kid and the dog get killed in the first episode.<BR>
<BR>
They weren't *nearly* as bad as the equivalent in *some* shows.<BR>
Besides, they provide a ready made way to get PCs into situations<BR>
they'd otherwise not touch with a 10 foot pole. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 05:04:05 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> Leonard Erickson asks:<BR>
><BR>
>>For lack of anything better to use as background noise, I was watching<BR>
>>the Battlestar Galactica marathon on the Sci-Fi channel earlier today.<BR>
>>And I had a silly thought.<BR>
>><BR>
>>*Could* the BG background be salavaged from all the bad science and<BR>
>>worse writing and turned into a campaign?<BR>
><BR>
>  The basic (sans BG details) plotline is quite useable. It's been running <BR>
> around in my head as a Mekton campaign for many years (I even ran the first <BR>
> session; imagine the looks on my players faces as I describe the burning of <BR>
> the planetary surface they were just on...).<BR>
>  Using the BG background while stripping the sillier science-suspension out <BR>
> is also quite easy, and could even be part of the TU. You (the Ref, that is) <BR>
> just treat the "lost colony called Earth" story as the version of <BR>
> history/legend that these people were taught (and will soon discover is <BR>
> false), while placing the Twelve far to rimward of Solomani space.<BR>
<BR>
I prefer coreward, as I'd rather not have them get gobbled by the<BR>
Solomani. On the other hand, I *do* have to admit that the Cylons and<BR>
the Solomani *do* deserve each other. <BR>
<BR>
Also, the legend can be *true* without savaging Traveller history too<BR>
much. Cobol would be a planet well to coreward (more than 1000 parsecs)<BR>
that had humans placed there by Grandfather. Possibly as *his*<BR>
equivalent of the Zhodani Core expeditions. Something scared him, and<BR>
he went for the final war.<BR>
<BR>
Meanwhile, Cobol got to a *much* higher TL than the Imperium (say TL 20<BR>
or more) and *did* send out long range exploration parties (possibly<BR>
after finding some of Grandfather's old records?. One contacted Earth.<BR>
Others found some nice worlds much farther coreward.  Colonies were<BR>
established there and a *small* colony was established on Earth to<BR>
study it.<BR>
<BR>
Then they fall partway back to primitive levels. Possibly because<BR>
Cobol's star has become an irregular variable, and having to completely<BR>
evacuate it overstrains their society.<BR>
<BR>
So the 12 colonies get most of the population and industrial base. The<BR>
base on Earth integrates itself into Egyptian society. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 21:48:59 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: Free Trade (Was  America, as seen by a Canadian)<BR>
<BR>
In Australia we once had an aircraft industry. This was destroyed over time<BR>
by our local government and the US.<BR>
<BR>
Example 1<BR>
During WW2 Australia designed and built prototypes for a long range escort<BR>
fighter superior to the Mustang. Result the US government told the<BR>
Australian government that if Australia wanted military aid this project<BR>
would go and Australia would fly Mustangs.<BR>
<BR>
Example 2<BR>
In the seventies Australias Government Aircraft Factories designed the GAF<BR>
Nomad, a light/medium STOL transport (admittedly not the world greatest<BR>
aircraft)It had both military and civil versions and was building up a<BR>
reasonable export market. Under pressure from overseas (something about<BR>
restricting Steel imports from Australia into the US) The Australian<BR>
government announced that GAF would no longer manufacture aircraft for sale<BR>
as quote "GAF is not in the business of building commercial aircraft."<BR>
<BR>
Don't get me started on agricultural exports.<BR>
<BR>
Antony<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 05:23:52 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> There was reportedly at least one hostile landing on the Australian coast,<BR>
> though they were so ill-prepared for conditions in Australia's outback they<BR>
> withdrew in poor order suffering many casualties from heat exhaustion and<BR>
> wildlife, without facing anything more than a single Aborgine family, who<BR>
> they couldn't catch.<BR>
<BR>
<snicker><BR>
<BR>
I can just imagine that. Troops in full combat load trying to catch a<BR>
bunch of Abos. The Abos must have laughed themselves silly at that<BR>
antics of the "crazy yellow men". <BR>
<BR>
ObTrav: Just about *any* non-mechanized infantry units trying to catch<BR>
bands of primitive natives in a *very* hostile environment (either hot<BR>
and dry or Arctic).<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 05:19:26 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
<BR>
Okay, any gearheads out there want to design the Galactica, A<BR>
representative BaseStar, and the fighters for both sides. <BR>
<BR>
Designs for members of the "ragtag fleet" would be nice too. <BR>
<BR>
Especially the kludged together "jump tender" idea and bunches of large<BR>
but non-jump craft to attach to it. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 22:07:19 -0800<BR>
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
<BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Leonard<BR>
> Erickson<BR>
> Sent: Saturday, 25 December 1999 4:42 AM<BR>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
> Subject: Re: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> >>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
> >>Subject: Highly Heretical TU idea<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>For lack of anything better to use as background noise, I was watching<BR>
> >>the Battlestar Galactica marathon on the Sci-Fi channel earlier today.<BR>
> >>And I had a silly thought.<BR>
> >><BR>
> >>*Could* the BG background be salavaged from all the bad science and<BR>
> >>worse writing and turned into a campaign?<BR>
> ><BR>
> >   Probably easier than Trek or Star Wars, but it still might fall under<BR>
> > the category of "abominations...man was not meant to kniow <fnord>".<BR>
><BR>
> I've got it! They are the survivors of a "minor human race" that had<BR>
> been on the far side of K'kree space. And they are trying to find<BR>
> Earth, while fighting ther way through the K'kree who, (quite<BR>
> naturally) want to wipe them from the Universe.<BR>
><BR>
> Either that, or place them on the far side of "Cylon space" which is on<BR>
> the far side of Vargr space. It just doesn't feel right to have them<BR>
> beyond the Solomani or Zhodani. The Aslan don't feel right either. And<BR>
> let's not even *think* about the Hivers. But the Vargr are sufficiently<BR>
> disorganized that it'd take a long time for anything to be noticed,<BR>
> much less get back to the Imperium.<BR>
><BR>
> Keep the "rag-tag fleet". But either make them all (barely) jump<BR>
> capable, or include a lot of patched together ???? (what do you call<BR>
> the ships that carry battel riders thru jump? I forget). Possibly<BR>
> kludged together out of salvaged jump units from the destroyed<BR>
> Battlestars and other *big* ships. With the result that they have next<BR>
> to *no* manueverability in normal space.<BR>
><BR>
> And for what it's worth, this lets you keep that episode where they<BR>
> picked up the signal from Earth. At that point they need to be about<BR>
> 1100 parsecs from Earth (assuming they are contemporary with the 3rd<BR>
> Imperium). Call it 30 sectors. Lots of room for Cylons, and other<BR>
> unknown civilizations, as well as lots of "empty" areas.<BR>
><BR>
> You *would* have to throw out "the great void", as it was *utter*<BR>
> nonsense, unless it was a dark nebula of some sort.<BR>
><BR>
> For *real* fun combine the "back story" of the Ancient Astronauts who<BR>
> had something to do with Egypt 5000 years back and came from Cobol,<BR>
> with the Grandfather stuff. So we have TL 20 or so relics from them<BR>
> popping up, too.<BR>
><BR>
> Actually the twelve colonies were founded from the Solomani Perseus Arm<BR>
expedition ships that did not return to Earth.<BR>
<BR>
Also as I recall from the first episode the Cylon leader asks a centurian<BR>
what class of warship was leading the refugees and was told "battlestar"<BR>
what other warship classes did the humans posess, and where were they?<BR>
<BR>
The great void would then be the gap between the Perseus and I think the<BR>
Sagitarium arms.<BR>
<BR>
The Galactica itself apart from its huge size in Traveller terms was fairly<BR>
conventional, (simply a greatly enlarged Wind class carrier) it had a spinal<BR>
weapon used to wipe out one worlds nuclear exchange plus missile bays and<BR>
point defence lasers.<BR>
<BR>
Antony Farrell<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 16:42:23 -0500<BR>
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca><BR>
Subject: Re: England... [WWII Casaulties]<BR>
<BR>
>At 01:22 PM 12/24/99 -0500, you wrote:<BR>
>>Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:23:16 -0500<BR>
>>From: "David L. Pulver" <dlpulver@kos.net><BR>
>>American battle deaths:   292,000 battle deaths.  No major civilian losses*.<BR>
><BR>
>[*Although I wonder how Merchant Marine deaths were counted.  That they<BR>
>took significant losses is obvious to anyone who has visited the memorial<BR>
>at NYC.]<BR>
<BR>
IIRC (and I may not), Merchant Marine deaths weren't really counted. I<BR>
remember an issue of Spectrum in the late 1980s that went into accidents in<BR>
American industry during wartime. Apparently, on average you were safer in<BR>
the Army than you were working in a war industry!  (Let';s cut safety<BR>
margins to boost productivity.)<BR>
<BR>
According to the author of the article, if you counted _extra_inustrial<BR>
casualties (ie. above and beyond the 'normal' accident rate) then American<BR>
wartime casualties were more than double official figures.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 06:44:02 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Six Flags<BR>
<BR>
William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net><BR>
<BR>
> As for the Six flags over texas, I don't honestly know the deal there...<BR>
> but I know the RoT had six states...<BR>
<BR>
Say rather it had the option to be subdivided<BR>
but that's just a coincidence. The reason Six<BR>
Flags got its name (at least according to the folks at<BR>
Six Flags when I was there) was the six flags:<BR>
<BR>
Spanish<BR>
French<BR>
Mexican<BR>
Texan<BR>
USA<BR>
Confederate<BR>
<BR>
As of the mid 80's they were flying these six flags <BR>
over the Dallas park.<BR>
<BR>
The finer points of Texas history may well be lost on <BR>
them, they are just an amusement park (albeit a good <BR>
one). Presumably when they came up with their name <BR>
they got it from the six flags.<BR>
<BR>
Their website at  www.sixflags.com<BR>
<BR>
does not seem to give a history of their name,<BR>
at least not on my brief examination.<BR>
<BR>
Ob Trav: Other than the obvious note that historical<BR>
fact is not always neat & clean, especially in the<BR>
sort of commemorative history you see in popular culture<BR>
I'm not really sure.  Perhaps if we threw the topic<BR>
open to "Entertainment of the Third Imperium" we'd<BR>
be a bit more on topic. One of the later Challenges<BR>
(#73 IIRC) had a TNE scenario featuring a theme park,<BR>
complete w/ robotic Bugs Bunny (Stats FFFF?? IIRC),<BR>
taken over by Virus - nasty :)<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:14:15 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Geog<BR>
<BR>
>>>They should know what the six flags over Texas are, and why they are<BR>
>>>important.<BR>
>><BR>
>>"Cause dude!  That's where the roller coasters are!!!"<BR>
><BR>
>Try the six constituent states of the Republic of Tejas.<BR>
<BR>
Republic of Texas has constituent states? Texas, New Mexico, Arizona,<BR>
Oklahoma... am I on the right track?<BR>
<BR>
As for the six flags, let's see if I can do this from memory... <BR>
USA, Confederate States of America, Republic of Texas, Mexico, Spain,<BR>
France. Not necessarily in that order. (And I'm not sure about France,<BR>
but wasn't part of Texas in the Louisiana Purchase?) Let me know if<BR>
I'm even close, eh?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:26:01 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1577<BR>
<BR>
Lincoln had become quite used to ordering the army to do things, not going <BR>
through any sort of republican process...He and the GOP [most of them] had <BR>
big plans for the south, which would have helped black folks, not been too <BR>
bad for low class folks, and destroyed the middle and upper class, installing <BR>
blacks as the middle rank of society, and the northerners as the <BR>
rulers...Johnson thought going back to the Constitution was a better idea. It <BR>
meant that southern blacks got stuck in a semi-serf status for an extra 80 <BR>
years, but it also meant that the current federal system of telling the <BR>
citizens what to do from the executive department was delayed for 100 years, <BR>
and the people delivering the orders are federal agent ranger/force <BR>
recon-want-to-bes in black helmets, not the real deal with heavy weapons<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/24/99 9:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< >Booth killed Lincoln in 1865, just after the war was<BR>
 >over.  Lincoln did not have time to set up the iron<BR>
 >thumb (although his field commanders, occupying the<BR>
 <BR>
    I'm not a historian, but I thought it was *Lincoln* who wanted<BR>
 reconciliation and rebuilding, and the rest of the party that wanted<BR>
 vengeance. Killing Lincoln probably made things *worse* for the South<BR>
 ...<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:25:07 -0700<BR>
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@ctaz.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Hiding education :was Geographical idiocy <BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
> <BR>
> >> I don't know...one of the earliest known writing samples is allegedly<BR>
> >> something along the lines of "Oh what is this younger generation coming<BR>
> >> to?"...a few _thousand_ BC...;-)<BR>
> ><BR>
> > I didn't know this.  But it certainly seems to be sequiter.<BR>
> <BR>
> >From my Quotes file:<BR>
> <BR>
> "  The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption<BR>
>    abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every<BR>
>    man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the<BR>
>    end of the world is fast approaching."<BR>
>                           - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC<BR>
<BR>
"The more things change, the more things stay the same."  <BR>
       - Snake Plisken, "Escape from L.A."<BR>
<BR>
Keven<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
tc++ tm+ tn+ t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure<BR>
                                                     In Reavers' Deep<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:29:09 EST<BR>
From: GaryBartz@aol.com<BR>
Subject: Re: winning, losing, and not winning wars (was re: England) <BR>
<BR>
I would tend to disagree [see my post of a few minutes ago], Mr Lincoln was <BR>
quite fond of army orders, and had a lot of congressional debts to pay <BR>
off...but your point is well taken, and either approach will fit well into a <BR>
campaign background<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 12/24/99 9:34:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>
owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<< Excuse me? Lincoln was for immediate re-integration of the Southern<BR>
 states into the Union with voting Senators and Representatives as soon as<BR>
 possible and near-immediate return of state government.  His party,<BR>
 led by the clique known as the "Black Republicans", opposed him in this.<BR>
 With Lincoln's assassination, Johnson attempted to follow Lincoln's intent,<BR>
 but lost the struggle with Congress and barely retained his presidency.<BR>
 The result was nearly a full generation of carpet-bagger and/or military<BR>
 rule of the Southern states. The South "lost" rather than "not-winning" in<BR>
 either case, but Lincoln's death/Johnson's failure upped the ante of that<BR>
 loss significantly.<BR>
  >><BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 07:30:02 -0900<BR>
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Texas<BR>
<BR>
Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net> wrote<BR>
<BR>
>  the Texas treaty of reunion provides that they<BR>
> >may seceed from the union, by some sepcified public majority.<BR>
<BR>
> Wrong again. The Civil War proved once and for all that NO state has the<BR>
> legal right to leave the union.<BR>
<BR>
So what you are saying is that whatever the government does<BR>
is legal? Thank you for clarifying your position Mr. Nixon,<BR>
er, excuse me, Mr. Vickers.<BR>
<BR>
I was not aware that the Civil War was a Supreme Court case.<BR>
The Constitution is interpreted by the Courts, not settled<BR>
on the field of battle. It's called the rule of law. It has<BR>
some significant advantages over the other method, most<BR>
notably its lesser amount of fatalities.<BR>
<BR>
Lee v. Grant (1865) [AKA Appomattox] may have decided secession <BR>
_de_facto_ but most definitely did _not_ settle it de jure.<BR>
<BR>
The United States Constitution does not specifically _forbid_<BR>
the secession of states . Therefore under the 10th Ammendment<BR>
it permits it (at least according to the founders). The fact <BR>
that we 20th century types choose not to see it that way is <BR>
not relevant to the original intent. I also note that after<BR>
the conclusion of the US Civil War/War Between the States the<BR>
US Constitution was never ammended to forbid states from<BR>
leaving the union.<BR>
<BR>
If you are claiming some other _legal_ source to prove that<BR>
US states may not secede what is it, and why the [deleted]<BR>
do you believe it trumps the 10th Ammendment.<BR>
<BR>
> Now if need be I can document my answers, cuz I TEACH TEXAS HISTORY :)<BR>
> I have plenty of books, documents etc..<BR>
<BR>
Without meaning any disrespect here I hope you do<BR>
not teach American Government, American History, [or Internet <BR>
etiquette Re: use of ALL CAPS] as well, Mr. Vickers.<BR>
<BR>
I find the whole notion of citing a _war_ as justification for<BR>
an action to be somewhat troubling. Do you teach your students<BR>
that law (as distinct from policy) is decided on the battlefield <BR>
by the victors? This may reflect the reality that many people <BR>
live in accurately but it seems somewhat anathema [IMNSHO] to <BR>
certain notions of American Government, and "western" government<BR>
in general such as the rule of law, individual rights, the<BR>
government being bound by the law.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:03:24 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
Good point Leonard, but by the time I even knew what OS/2 was or could<BR>
afford to buy an operating system, it was already dead and buried.<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
- ----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com><BR>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Sent: Saturday, December 25, 1999 2:46 AM<BR>
Subject: Re: Drawing Program<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
> In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
> > I really think Amiga could have been a much more powerful, robust and<BR>
stable<BR>
> > machine than the others out there.  You can't tell me Gates and his<BR>
cronies<BR>
> > couldn't see what a threat this was and not do something to forestall<BR>
it.<BR>
> > Who would want a crummy Windows PC with its limitations when you can<BR>
have 10<BR>
> > times the machine and a more stable operating system?<BR>
><BR>
> <sigh><BR>
><BR>
> Anybody who had too much money invested in software that ran on the old<BR>
> OS and hardware.<BR>
><BR>
> That's why OS/2 was a *much* more credible threat to MS. It ran on the<BR>
> same hardware and would run existing software as well OR BETTER.<BR>
><BR>
> --<BR>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:16:56<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Getting to cons<BR>
<BR>
At 04:50 PM 12/24/1999 PST, you wrote:<BR>
>In mail you write:<BR>
><BR>
>> 2) Fly to SF (IIRC, SD is close to SF), for about $900 RT.<BR>
><BR>
>If by SD you mean "San Diego", you have a slight problem... It's not<BR>
>only not near San Francisco, it's about 100 miles *south* of LA. It's<BR>
>practically on the Mexican border.<BR>
<BR>
If you are looking for a cheaper way to get to the Bay Area, we also have<BR>
San Jose Internationa Airport (SJC) and Oakland Airport (OAK)<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:24:11<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: OT/Flamebait: Starship Troopers revisited<BR>
<BR>
At 03:24 PM 12/24/1999 -0600, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>Last month, while attending ExotiCon II in New Orleans, a number of us<BR>
>were gathered in the Babylon 504 video room, watching Babylon Park." <BR>
>Among the viewers was Jason Carter....<BR>
<BR>
Eep!  You met Carter?  Damn!  He was here in the Bay Area a few months<BR>
back, and I was going to go see him in my Marcus costume, but ill health<BR>
prevented it.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:12:34<BR>
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Geog<BR>
<BR>
At 06:03 PM 12/24/1999 -0900, you wrote:<BR>
<BR>
>>>They should know what the six flags over Texas are, and why they are<BR>
>>>important.<BR>
>><BR>
>>"Cause dude!  That's where the roller coasters are!!!"<BR>
><BR>
>Try the six constituent states of the Republic of Tejas.<BR>
<BR>
*grin*, I knew that, but was going for my Spewage Medal with Swords and<BR>
Diamonds.<BR>
<BR>
What interesting is the variant names that have been attached to the<BR>
various Six Flags parks.  SF just took over Marine World, so we have Six<BR>
Flags over Free Willie.  And of course everybody remembers Hertitage USA,<BR>
aka Six Flags over Jesus.<BR>
- -- <BR>
<BR>
Douglas E. Berry       gridlore@mindspring.com<BR>
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:55:17 -0700 (MST)<BR>
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU><BR>
Subject: Re: Geographical idiocy (<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> >Well, I can feel a *little* sympathy for him. Fords in streams aren't the<BR>
> >sort of thing folks who aren't into historical novels or fantasy would<BR>
> >know about.<BR>
> <BR>
> Or those of us that have spent a good bit of time walking through hills<BR>
> and hollows.  In some parts of the US, knowing where, and how, to ford a<BR>
> branch is still an important skill.  But, heck, I bet most of you have<BR>
> never seen a small stream called a branch!  <g><BR>
<BR>
Heck, it's _easy_ to ford streams here...rivers even, unless it's raining<BR>
hard and there's actually _water_ involved...<BR>
<BR>
But you do still have to watch for the Fords in them, though ;-)<BR>
<BR>
Bruce Johnson<BR>
University of Arizona<BR>
College of Pharmacy<BR>
Information Technology Group<BR>
<BR>
Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:51:31 -0800<BR>
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com><BR>
Subject: Merry Christmas<BR>
<BR>
- --------------9D7602761ACC455CCB5303B0<BR>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
Merry Christmas to you all, and have a Happy New Years! *<:})<BR>
<BR>
- --<BR>
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California<BR>
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com<BR>
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only<BR>
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people<BR>
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
- --------------9D7602761ACC455CCB5303B0<BR>
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii<BR>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>
<BR>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"><BR>
</FONT><FONT  SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
<B>Merry Christmas to you all, and have a Happy New Years! <blink>*</blink>&lt;:})</B><BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
<BR>
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California<BR>
<A HREF="mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com">mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com</A> | <A HREF="http://www.thelair.cnchost.com">http://www.thelair.cnchost.com</A><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people get what they deserve."&nbsp;&nbsp; --Zena Marley<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
- --------------9D7602761ACC455CCB5303B0--<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:14:25 -0600<BR>
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net><BR>
Subject: Re: England<BR>
<BR>
Frank Pitt wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
<<snip>><BR>
> <BR>
> > Australia was likewise too far, with too much water<BR>
> > and too many American warships in between.<BR>
> <BR>
> Hmm, American warships didn't help until the US had some in the area, and<BR>
> the invasion of Australia was largely avoided by a stout defence of New<BR>
> Guinea by Australian, New Zealand, and British troops.<BR>
<BR>
Well, there _was_ the Battle of the Coral Sea (May 1942), in which a US<BR>
Navy carrier task force turned back a Japanese attempt to invade Port<BR>
Moresby by sea.  (Yes, I know that Task Group 17.3 [Support Group],<BR>
commanded by RN Rear Admiral Crace, had 2 Australian cruisers, but the<BR>
primary fighting was conducted by carrier air strikes.)<BR>
<BR>
<<snip>><BR>
<BR>
'Nuff said.  (Actually, probably _more_ than enough said on this<BR>
off-topic thread.)<BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead<BR>
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)<BR>
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1580<BR>
***********************************<BR>
<BR>
To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:<BR>
<BR>
unsubscribe traveller-digest<BR>
<BR>
in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com".<BR>
If you want to subscribe something other than the account the mail is<BR>
coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that<BR>
address to the "subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe<BR>
"local-traveller":<BR>
<BR>
subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net<BR>
<BR>
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to<BR>
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"<BR>
in the commands above with "traveller".<BR>
<BR>
Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com<BR>
</XMP></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0f0f0f" BACK="#fffffe" SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10><BR>
<BR>
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------<BR>
Return-Path: <owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
Received: from  rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc04.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:10:27 -0500<BR>
Received: from  lists.imagiconline.com (lists.imagiconline.com [204.85.32.11]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:10:09 -0500<BR>
Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA57768;<BR>
	Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:09:55 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Received: by lists.imagiconline.com (bulk_mailer v1.12); Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:09:28 -0500<BR>
Received: (from majordom@localhost)<BR>
	by lists.imagiconline.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) id NAA57721<BR>
	for traveller-digest-outgoing; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:09:28 -0500 (EST)<BR>
	(envelope-from owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com)<BR>
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 13:09:28 -0500 (EST)<BR>
Message-Id: <199912251809.NAA57721@lists.imagiconline.com><BR>
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)<BR>
To: traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #1580<BR>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
</HTML>
